SEPERATION OF CHURCH & STATE This is an excerpt from a friendly debate about Obama vs. McCain. This particular topic I feel transcends the election and deserves to be discussed separately from the candidates b/c it is more important than both of them. The comments I’m responding to are in green………..and by the way, I know what Fascism means ;-)
"Christianity has no place in government, nor does any religion. So, for McCain, is this the case? Does he believe that church and state should be separate? McCain favors keeping the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance; he has voted three times in favor of Senate legislation to affirm the reference. In an interview with Beliefnet in September 2007, McCain said that "the Constitution established the United States of America as a Christian nation." Yes, I can see this, especially as our Founding Fathers SPECFICALLY outlined the separation...Now, about fascism <http://aolsvc.merriam-webster.aol.com/dictionary/fascism>:1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition 2: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control "
My thought on the subject:
Separation of Church & State: this topic is of such importance to me that I considered conceding every other point you made, only to argue this one. Instead I decided to address this one separately. I am a Christian, and as a believer in the teachings of Christ, I wish everybody could be a Christian. But it is your choice as an individual, and it cannot ever be legislated.
Separation of Church & State is one of the most important elements of our founding. It was a brilliant idea. However, many on the left have perverted it’s meaning & are trying to use it to suppress freedom of speech & religious rights. The separation of church & state was designed to keep the church from ruling the state, or having heavy influence on the state, and to prevent theocracy. It was never, ever intended to stamp out the existence of God. The greatest proponent of Separation of Church & State was Thomas Jefferson – He was also the one who used the language “endowed by our creator” in THE founding document of our nation. The first 2 sentences in the Declaration of Independence include undeniable references to God! In fact, there are mentions of God throughout the greatest document in history since the Magna Carta. “appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions” , “And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.” (well said T.J.)
"McCain favors keeping the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance; he has voted three times in favor of Senate legislation to affirm the reference"
I must thank you for the above information. I was not aware that John McCain 3 times stood up for God as the Supreme judge in which we humbly owe our gratitude for the rights we enjoy. This only furthers my resolve to vote for McCain. “Under God” should remain in our pledge, and “In God we trust” should remain on our currency. It is the affirmation and the assertion of the Declaration of Independence, as well as the spirit of this land and its inhabitants that all rights are given to us by GOD, NOT BY GOVERNMENT. And as such NO GOVERNMENT CAN RIGHTLY TAKE WHAT GOD IN HIS ETERNAL WISDOM HAS GRANTED. The day we decide that God has no place in our life at all, there will be a deep void, and that void will be filled by something. Something opposite of God, and as such, we will cease to be a “Nation under God”. As one who believes in God, I also believe that the opposite of God is “Evil”, and the absence of God is darkness. The day we decide that our rights are given to us by Government, not God, the government will be our God and as such will control our lives in a dangerous and unacceptable way. What protects our rights is the assertion that they are “endowed by our creator”, not given to us by government. And as such no government has the authority to take what God has given.
On an outside note: The other thing that helps protect our rights is the second amendment.
There have been other Godless nations who were prosperous. Nazi Germany, The Soviet Union - governments that any freedom loving, free thinking person would never accept.
Obama’s dangerous comment about how average people “cling to their God & their guns” show that he is out of touch with those who carry religious conviction. Studies show that 80% of Americans believe in God (even though many aren’t practicing). Even the simple who have never eaten arugula realize that their rights are God given, and their guns protect their rights from big government who seek to control them under the guise (conscious or not) that they know what’s best for them. Having the word “God” in the pledge, or on our currency does not serve or give power to any particular religion or church. If it did, then it would violate separation of church & state. It merely affirms that there is a higher power unto who we owe gratitude and reference for the freedoms we have, and a reminder that we serve something greater than ourselves.
The bigotry, ignorance, intolerance, and hostility toward people of faith from the left is highly disturbing. And it only pushes those who might normally vote for a democrat to vote republican, despite political differences just to preserve their faith and way of life. The first Europeans to settle this country came here to escape religious persecution. God can never be erased from our history books without the work of treachery and dishonesty because God was here with the first to arrive on our shores, and is deeply entrenched in the fabric of our culture.
Groups like the ACLU are making headlines all the time engaging in what I call “Judicial Fascism”. That is a term I use to describe those who cannot push their agenda through democratic means, so they distort and misrepresent the constitution and use corrupt judges (appointed, not elected) in the courts to “legislate from the bench”. Regardless of political persuasion, this is flat out wrong. The judicial branch of government is supposed to interpret the law, not write law. It is a blatant, and unconstitutional dismissal of democracy and a hostile attack on the will of the people. It sets an extremely dangerous precedent that when the “will of the people” is deemed wrong by the elite, they can simply take it to court and have a sympathetic judge interpret the law as they see fit. If a small town of 500 people in “Mayberry, Middle America” decide that they want to have the 10 commandments displayed in front of their courthouse as a reminder of the tradition that our modern laws are based on the law of Moses, and that the rule of law is the building block of any free society, and there are no overt support or references to any particular religion, then it is not unconstitutional and NOBODY has a right to go to this small town and tell them what they can & cannot do. I felt this was a better location for your definition of Fascism. The people I’m referring to here ARE NOT ELECTED & DO NOT REFLECT THE WILL OF THE MAJORITY. a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition 2: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control.
This “Judicial Fascism” (as I call it) is oppression, and it is against freedom. I believe in freedom.
We should not legislate religion and religious doctrine into law. It’s been done in the past and it is wrong. We cannot legislate morality, unless the particular immoral act is a clear & present danger to humanity, and even then, not for religious reasons. That of course would violate the separation of Church and State.
We must however, have morality. One of the reasons there are so many problems in Russia right now is the absence of God for all those years since the Bolsheviks outlawed the Orthodox church. The class in power in Russia is intelligent, educated, and expert chess players. However, they have NO moral foundation so see no reason that they shouldn’t be involved with aggression and gangster-like business practices. Corruption in their government is rampant. Why shouldn’t it be? What greater good do they serve than themselves? They have no ideals, they have no spirituality. They have no God. That’s the reality we will live in without God in our motto.
I’m not, nor never have, suggested that any particular religion be a state religion, that is clearly unconstitutional. Everybody has a religion. Maybe some believe in science, maybe some believe in capitalism, or socialism, maybe a political party, but everybody believes in something. To isolate and target Christians and their religious rights is to open the door to challenge the rights of everybody.
I’m considered a moderate conservative by most. Even liberal in some areas (though admittedly not many). I believe the Republicans should have nominated McCain instead of Bush 8 years ago. If the democrats were enlightened enough to nominate a moderate like Joe Lieberman, I very well may have voted for him. But with this topic, I take exception. I will never Moderately believe in God.
“In God We Trust” & “One Nation Under God” should always be our mottos. AND IT IS NOT INSTITUTIONALIZED RELIGION. Specifically what religion does it institutionalize? It doesn’t specifically represent any single religion, or any particular church. This is one of the most important domestic issues we have ever faced as a nation. This is one of the most important domestic and cultural issues we have ever faced as a nation. In fact I believe that it is so important, that I not only worry about the motives of those against it, I’m worried for their soul. Forget all the other issues. Don’t be on the wrong side of this one. The ramifications are eternal.
Neil
